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GYWD #22: Tools of the Trade with Plottr Founders Cameron Sutter and Ryan Zee

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In this episode…

Are you the kind of person who likes to hash out all the details before you start writing? Or are you the kind of person who likes to take an idea, start writing, and see where it goes?

Whether or not you’ve taken sides in the Plotter/Pantser wars, all fiction writers eventually have the same needs. They need to figure out their story’s timeline, they need to make sure their plots are coherent, they need to understand their characters’ arcs, and so on.

So today I’m excited to be chatting with Cameron Sutter and Ryan Zee, founders of the fantastic new app, Plottr. Plottr is a beautiful app with easy-to-use drag & drop visual timelines that let you construct outlines and plots more quickly than ever. And it has built-in plot templates based on time-tested structures like the Hero’s Journey, the 12 Chapter Mystery, and Romancing the Beat.

Whether you’re a plotter or a pantser, the Plottr app is definitely worth checking out.


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Trevor Thrall  0:00  
Welcome to the Get your writing done Podcast. I’m Trevor Thrall, author of the 12 week year for writers. If you enjoy today’s episode, please submit a review wherever you get your podcasts that really helps. And for weekly updates on the podcast and other writing resources you can subscribe to my newsletter at get your writing done calm. Are you the kind of person who likes to hash out all the details before you start writing? Or are you the kind of person who likes to take an idea start writing and see where it goes. Whether or not you’ve taken sides and the plotter pancer wars, all fiction writers eventually have the same needs. They need to figure out their stories timeline, they need to make sure their plots are coherent, they need to understand their characters, arcs and so on. So today, I’m excited to be chatting with Cameron Sutter, and Ryan Z founders of the fantastic new app plotter. plotter is a beautiful app with easy drag and drop visual timelines that let you construct outlines and plots more quickly than ever, and has built in plot templates based on time tested stories telling structures like the hero’s journey, the 12, Chapter mystery, Romancing the beat. So whether you’re a plotter or a pantser, the plotter app is definitely worth checking out.

Ryan and Cameron, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me.

Cameron Sutter  1:24  
Thanks for having us.

Ryan Zee  1:26  
Great to be here.

Trevor Thrall  1:27  
Fantastic. Fantastic. So I was just telling Cameron before we hopped on here that i i in you know the age of the internet, you never remember where you discovered something first. So I can’t remember exactly how I stumbled across plotter a year or two ago. But I immediately bought it and download it even though I don’t write fiction myself, because I was just so taken with this tool. So before we get started, I just want to make sure people know what it is that we’re talking about. Could you just briefly describe what plotter is and what it does? And we’ll dig into the details later. But just give people a sense of what what is this great tool you guys have built.

Cameron Sutter  2:06  
That’s what’s a visual way to plan out your stories. You can think of it like sticky notes on your wall or index cards, if you’ve ever tried that system for planning out your stories. But it just kind of like the threads of your story going across the screen and you can move them drag them and and it’s a very visual, kind of fun way to plan out your story.

Trevor Thrall  2:25  
Yeah, I mean, it’s so good looking that. Like I said, even though I don’t write fiction, I was immediately drawn to download it because I wanted to play with those cards. I mean, it looks very cool. And yeah, so So how did the idea for plotter come about? Does one of you right? Did you somebody run into a plot problem and have to solve it by creating a piece of software? How to how’d that come about?

Cameron Sutter  2:49  
Yeah, so I’m a writer, Cameron, I’ve been writing for. You know, since I was young, I was writing on and off just stories I wrote my first novel, when I was in seventh grade, I was a weird, weird kid in a home run, writing my novel instead of talking to friends, and just kind of on and off my whole life I’ve written and my last year of college, I took a class by Brandon Sanderson. Oh, yeah, he’s fairly famous. And he, he teaches a class on creative writing. And during that class, you have to write a novel, or novella 50,000 words. And so I did that. And that got me into writing again. And so I was like my second book after that, I was just not happy with my process. And it was in a writing group at work. And we’re just going to brainstorming, how can we make a better tool, and I just kind of saw this visual way of like, seeing the threads of your story weave together. And then I’m a software engineer, that’s my day job. I was like, you know, I started looking for other tools that are out there, like, tried spreadsheets, I tried Scrivener, I tried a bunch of different ones. And just none of them were the visual thing that I saw in my head. And so I was like, Well, I’m just gonna build it myself. And so in my writing group, you know, I built it. Some some guys helped me and then it just started, we showed it to some other authors, and it started growing from there.

Trevor Thrall  4:20  
Wow. Wow, that’s amazing. And Ryan, when did you join the the picture?

Ryan Zee  4:26  
So So I came across Potter, actually in a Facebook group around the end of 2019. And I’ve been running my own book related businesses for a while at that point. So I basically reached out to Cameron. I’d never seen the tool before. I reached out to him on his website, and I was like, this is really cool. Like, I think I might be able to help you with this. So, you know, kind of, we started talking around the end of 2019. And we decided to start partnering just in time for the pandemic. So So, yeah, that was an interesting. We we ended up launching. So I came on board in January of 2020. We we spent a bunch of a few months launching it, or working on relaunching it on the pandemic, it’s pretty much in the middle as over. So we’re doing that. So it was like, Is this gonna work? Wow. Yeah. So we ended up launching in May of 2020. And it you know, Hunnewell went, I think better than it started off better than I think either of us expected, given what was happening in the world. But interesting, interesting circumstance.

Trevor Thrall  5:35  
You know, that’s interesting. So I didn’t realize that it was that recent a launch, I realized I must have been one of your earlier downloaders in that sense. And I’ll tell you what, I think you you may have benefited from the sheer fact that we were all home all day long, staring at our screens. My wife’s online business had a huge spike in May of 2020. Because all of a sudden everybody was sitting at home anyway. Yep. Yeah, I think very, it’s very, and we’ve never had a month back. Good that that time of the year before. So it was like, wow, okay, maybe people are are just bored. So well, that’s really interesting, man. That’s the magic of the internet for you reaching out and being able to partner like that is super cool. So So Kevin, it sounds like the initial sort of initial initial development of the tool was just sort of born from your own frustrations, but how did you decide what it was going to actually be? Once you started building it? What were the sort of the thoughts in your mind about what it needs to be at least at first?

Cameron Sutter  6:35  
Well, we had a initial idea of what I saw in my head, and, and then it just as I use it, for my own stories, it just kind of grew from there. And it was, so I launched the beta of it in like 2017. And probably the day before I did that, I was like, you know, what, we need an area for just general notes. Because at the time, I just had characters in places, and like, you know, we need this area for notes. And so I think in like, one day or something, I was like, I need this before I launch the beta. And so I put it in there. So it was, isn’t very much just what I thought I would need for myself and what I wanted. There wasn’t a lot of direction there. Right.

Trevor Thrall  7:19  
So so at this point, you know, from beta to, to launch, you made a lot of additional design decisions, anything there, that was sort of the most important killer thing you you managed to add before you went live. Because I know when you’re, you know, knocking the rust off, you know, you’re making all sorts of little tweaks and any sort of whoops, if we hadn’t done that it wouldn’t have been the same thing, or had you mostly nailed it right out the box? Well, the

Cameron Sutter  7:46  
the timeline is really the big thing, and that that’s what’s carried everything else. I think that has been really the major feature that everybody sees, and they’re like, oh, I want that. I need that. Otherwise, I think I, honestly, the other ones are just not great. In my opinion. I think the other parts of it are not great, and they need a lot of work. That’s, I mean, every software is probably like that, too. But the other ones, I don’t know, I think there’s a lot that we still need to work on to get them better. But one of the things I will say is the templates. Yeah, that wasn’t, that wasn’t added right away. But when we added it later, it was just, it was obvious right away that that was a big deal. And Ryan has really pushed that since relaunching it the idea of templates and making them more easier to use and better and more of them. And that has just been one of the killer features.

Trevor Thrall  8:40  
No, no, I mean, that the reason I asked is because then I was gonna ask my next question is where did the idea for the templates come from? Because I will tell you that that the one two punch when I went to your website was you see the timeline, you go, Ooh, I want to play with it. Because it’s just it’s like looking at a jungle gym. You’re like, oh, that has like, parts and pieces I want to mess with. But then the for all of us who are like me, like I’ve been planning novels in my head for 30 years. Haven’t I been busy writing other books. So I didn’t get around to him yet. But like, one of the things that is immediately, you know, incumbent upon you, if you’re actually thinking about this is I need a way to figure out where this thing is going. So the immediate next need is, but I don’t know how to write a novel. And when you show me a template, I’m like, what boom done. Like so that to me was exactly right. Where did the templates idea come from?

Ryan Zee  9:33  
I don’t know. Yeah, I mean, there were templates built into the program. Like before I got into it before I started working on the you know, on plotter, but they were very bare bones they were basically just the pieces of the of the build basically just the titles, right of the parts, but not actually any of the instructions. And if you

Cameron Sutter  9:57  
remember Ryan it wasn’t they weren’t even built in. You bought them separately. And you had to use them separately. So it was, yeah, it was really hard to use.

Ryan Zee  10:05  
Yeah. So So one of the, when we did the relaunch one of the, you know, so he made the templates, configurable from within the program itself was a big change. And then also adding the series view. So, you know, organize multiple books, and a project was a was instilled as a big, you know, feature for the program that people really enjoy using. But the templates themselves come from, you know, sources all over the internet, a lot of it is just through research. And, you know, actually through meeting people, you know,

Trevor Thrall  10:40  
trying to remember, was it the 27 chapter template that there’s a video of the woman who kind of made it popular showing you how to use a sort of a white board, or she’s using a big poster or something like that to do it. And you guys have one, I was like, this is like, the ultimate kind of like, crack for authors, man, is that people doing it with this template. And then you look over to Tony, like, Yep, I got that in there. I mean, that is a really powerful sort of call to action for people who are working their way through a struggle with a plot or aren’t sure how to write something they haven’t tried to write yet. Like a lot of people switching genres. It’s a big thank, you know,

Ryan Zee  11:18  
I mean, that’s what we found, especially with some of the research we’ve done is that, you know, the majority of people who are using the software are either working on publishing their first book of fiction are there. Maybe they have one book published? So that’s like, 60% of the audience right there.

Trevor Thrall  11:37  
Ah, so first timers or or first to second book is your audience. So yeah,

Ryan Zee  11:41  
this is the large part of it. And the other, you know, obviously, the other 40% are multi published authors. But the big the big chunk is, you know, new is somewhat, you know, fairly new authors. Yeah. So, you know, the templates really help. You know, like you said, for people who are just getting started, or, you know, if you’re switching genres, we have a lot of people who messaged us telling us, you know, hey, you know, like, the cozy mystery template in there is really helpful. For me, I’m trying to write cozy or the romance is really helpful for me, trying to write romance. So we get those sorts of comments fairly often.

Trevor Thrall  12:16  
Interesting, interesting. Alright, so the name of your tools suggests that you’ve taken a strong stance in the plotter, pancer wars. So now I’m going to ask you to defend your stance number one. And then number two, what would you tell a pantser that would ever make them try your app?

Cameron Sutter  12:39  
We actually the Nate the name is misleading in that sense of it, because we have not taken a stance. Uh huh. It is just the name that that stuck. But it actually works great for both both plotters and Pantsers. You know, I guess it was originally designed for, for plotters, because that was what I was more of, or I wanted to be, I guess I tried to make myself a plotter because I was more of a pantser, I think. But we found that it just, it’s great for both the reason being for plotters, they love seeing everything and putting all the pieces before they write, right. But for Pantsers, you can write the first draft and then go back and put it into the plotter timeline. And it’s just a really powerful editing tool. Now, and we find a lot of users, it just a lot of the use, they get out of plotter is in the editing phase of either their own editing or sharing it with somebody a coach or an editor. And their their will, the person they’re showing it to they’re able to show the visual story. And it’s just like, it’s a lot easier to get than having to read the 100,000 word manuscript. Right? Right.

Ryan Zee  13:51  
There’s also a segment of people, interestingly, who they actually write and plot sort of side by side. So this is a group that I’ve become more familiar with recently. But there is a segment of the audience that you know, will will write chapter one, pants chapter one, and then they’ll outline it, they’ll put it it’ll put their notes in for for that book that are the scenes in that chapter. And they go to chapter two and chapter 13, they do the same thing. So just take like a just organizing it as they’re pantsing rather than doing at the beginning, or at the end. They’re just doing it as they’re going.

Trevor Thrall  14:23  
Yeah, scaffolding as they go. I mean, you know, it’s another way to do it. They’re probably an infinite number of ways to do it. But I think that’s the, that’s the thing. You’re saying that the tool allows you to start and build the entire scaffold or you can build as you go, it’s up to you the writer, right? It’s nice. So tell me a little bit. Maybe you could just say a brief spiel about like how someone would start and then work through a book with with plotter and the reason I want you to do that is to help us distinguish it from how you would then, you know, relate for people how you you, you know, hook compete or what with Scrivener and Microsoft Word and other things, people might be using Ulysses or things to write novels.

Cameron Sutter  15:14  
Yeah, I was thinking Ryan, you probably do a better job of telling

Ryan Zee  15:18  
people that. All right, um, yeah, I mean, so typically what we recommend, just to get started with the program is to, if you’re new to writing, you know, checking out the templates is a great place to get started. Just as a means to get acclimated with the program, how it works. And, you know, if you’re new to writing, you know, a cell phone gives you tip, it gives you tips for you know, getting started, you know, what’s a button, what part of your story, we also have, you know, a bunch of great video tutorials, if your issue if you’re having some trouble just getting acclimated to the program itself. So we also have documentation. So there are a bunch of areas, we also have these great YouTube video to YouTube videos with. Interviews with other authors, we’re using the program. So you could probably check out our YouTube channel and you can see, okay, well, I have a bar, I’m writing an X kind of book, or I’m having x kind of issue, you know, does, you know, is there a video here that can help me resolve it or show me how to do something in plotter related to it? So those are probably where I’d get started with one of those areas.

Trevor Thrall  16:34  
Excellent. And so how do you compare plotter to Scrivener?

Cameron Sutter  16:39  
So Scrivener is great at the writing part of the story and plotter, you don’t write your story in plotter, it’s not meant for that it’s not, you know, optimized or focused on that at all. So we are we see ourselves as a tool that, that helps you besides Scrivener or word. So once you write your story, you can export it to Scrivener or to word and then just start writing. So it’s not meant to replace those. It’s just meant to help you.

Trevor Thrall  17:12  
Yeah, because I think, you know, and I don’t know, you know, Cameron, what you were using to do your if you were doing any plot design before, but very typically, we’re talking about Excel, or Google Sheets as someone’s plot or alternative, not Scrivener, because you’re right. It’s not built for that. But but a lot of people I know, you know, are, you know, moving scenes around in Excel. And the big selling point for Excel was, well, it’s a lot easier to do that doing, you know, trying to move paragraphs or chapters or, you know, even seen, you know, notes in Word, which yes, it is a lot easier, but it’s not beautiful, compared to to a visual timeline that you have in plotter. So. So that’s, you know, that’s really interesting, because I have to say, you know, one of the things about Scrivener, is that there are just a lot of writers who use it, I probably I don’t I’m not sure I know a fiction writer who doesn’t own it. Now, they might not use it. Because the second thing about Scrivener is it has a massive learning curve. For something that is so easy as writing. And once people when people fully embrace it, you know, I work with a bunch of writers and I’ve seen some of them just absolutely trick out their stuff with Scrivener. It looks great. And it looks like it works really well for them. But, but not for this piece. And so I think you know, that was what drew me is like a tool that does one thing super, super, super well is really appealing to me. I really like tools like that. So, you know, obviously, the timeline and the templates are kind of the one two punch. What’s another feature that people love a lot about plotter, I mean,

Ryan Zee  18:49  
so a lot of people use the character, Bible functionality, the seer and the Subtractor characters. And then we also have a places portion where you can track your places. So you know, depending on where you’re starting with your project, if you’re starting with the plot, you’re starting with a character. If you’re starting with a character, you can, you know, put in all of the other characters in your, in your books. You can organize Custom Attributes around about them. So basically, if you want to track the character’s height, or their eye color, or their motivation, or you know anything about your characters, you can set up custom fields or what we call attributes for them. And then you can filter all of your characters and places by those so that you can really easily find and organize the elements of your book. So that that’s definitely a popular feature. There are also templates for character creation in the program that people use. So you know, goal motivation, conflict Enneagram.

Trevor Thrall  19:51  
Again, great for a new writer who’s sort of still trying to remember all the parts and pieces and not miss anything, right? Yeah. Great. And all those things that characters and stuff like that that all syncs to the appropriate spots on Scrivener as well then.

Ryan Zee  20:06  
Yeah. So when you when you export, you actually can choose where these things are going to display in Scrivener, but yeah, it does it all comes through to Scrivener.

Trevor Thrall  20:14  
Yeah, that’s super, super important because I do you know, again, I, you know, one of the first questions people will ask me when I’m talking about various apps is, well, what do I do about Scrivener? So you know, some of the Darth Vader out there Death Star, where do you want to target about? You know, it’s a great tool, but you know, everyone else has got to deal with it. I guess it’s so what’s it? Is there a feature that you think people are sleeping on a little bit? What’s What’s the feature? People should be using more, but maybe don’t always use or don’t think about?

Ryan Zee  20:46  
Well, I mean, I know personally, the feature that I worry people aren’t aware of is the scene stacking. So the ability on the timeline, for example, to you can stack your scenes vertically within a within a plotline. So if you have like a plotline for certain character or a certain, you know, arc of the story, you can you can stack the scenes vertically within that line to get multiple scenes relating to that particular plot line.

Trevor Thrall  21:16  
Right. Right. Okay, that’s very cool. And I know you guys have a lot in the works, you just came out with a new version, want to talk a little bit about the pro stuff and what’s what’s new and what’s great.

Cameron Sutter  21:33  
Yeah, plotter Pro is really exciting, because you’re mad for a lot of reasons. So you’re able to now collaborate with other writers in real time. So if you have a co writer, or an editor that you do a lot with in the story development phase of your process, you’re able to show them your plotter, project, and in real time, make changes and tweak things and edit things. And if you’re writing with a co writer, you’re able to create the story together as you’re, you know, maybe both talking on Zoom or something, you can both be editing the file. So the collaboration piece is going to change the game. I think in a lot of ways, it’s really exciting. But then there’s also the having everything synced on your different devices, and having everything stored in the cloud so that if your computer Computer World blows up, which has never happened to any writer ever, I’m sure. But you haven’t backed up and it safe. Yeah,

Ryan Zee  22:32  
it also comes with a web application. So the pro version is basically the cloud based version of plotter, you can think of plotter as sort of the standard offline version. And Pro is the cloud based version like there aren’t there aren’t any specific world building or story building features in Pro that aren’t in the standard version. But it does, it takes everything to the next level just by virtue of making everything cloud based, and giving you access to using plotter and some in different ways.

Trevor Thrall  23:04  
Yeah, now that’s, that’s awesome. I think, you know, one of the initial sort of word killing features of Google was that real time collaboration where you didn’t have to worry about version control. And I can’t tell you how many hours I’ve lost to Version Control with co authors, and it’s just such a frickin hassle. And yeah, you know, Track Changes is my, you know, bet noir, I cannot stand track changes. That’s the worst thing ever invented. But, but we can’t do without it unless you have an alternatives. And so, you know, yeah, work on the same document is, to me, it’s priceless. So, Ryan, you mentioned before that you you guys have done a little bit of research on people who use the tool, what kind of what kind of research? Have you done? What have you learned about people who are using it and how they use it and stuff like that?

Ryan Zee  23:48  
Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the interesting findings from the the we just did a survey, this is in January of 2022. So we just did a survey asking, you know, our authors a whole bunch of different questions about, you know, their background and kind of what their goals are, what their challenges are. And I think one area that maybe surprised me a little bit was the idea generation itself. There’s like a, you know, a good number of people who, who’s just struggled coming up with an idea to write about or just to pick, like, I have 10 ideas, right? Which How do I choose an idea? You know, which idea do I decide to spend time on, I thought was really interesting. And then, you know, taking, you know, taking that idea and then turning it into an outline, you know, and taking that outlining and turning it finally turning it into a book. This was kind of these three large segments of people. And so, you know, we’re going to try to help those people to the extent that we can with the program, but it was a little eye opening to realize just How many people get stuck at that beginning phase and never really even get necessarily to the writing part? Because they’re just so stuck in choosing and thinking of what to do in the first place? Yeah,

Trevor Thrall  25:14  
no, that’s absolutely true. And, you know, it’s, it’s interesting, because I think everyone who writes probably has, you know, and I think oftentimes, we don’t realize that we have, but we have some kind of strategy or set of tricks we use to get started. And if you haven’t got them, then it’s really because starting is the hardest thing with almost anything, whether it’s Yeah, weights or starting a diet or whatever, once you’re doing it, it’s it might be difficult, but it’s not as hard as starting was. And so you know, if you can reduce the friction, and, you know, sort of on the habit side now increase how easy it is, how attractive it is, how satisfying it is to, to generate ideas and to start putting together a plot, you may have just helped a whole bunch of people start a novel that otherwise wouldn’t exist, which that’s pretty cool. Yeah, that’s really neat. So speaking of research, are people asking you for things they must be now? Okay, so I want to know two things. One, what our customers asking for that you’re, you’re thinking about doing what our customers asking for? That’s just stupid. And customers are so dumb, why? Why do they even talk?

Ryan Zee  26:20  
What’s what open as one of our customers are dumb, let’s put

Trevor Thrall  26:24  
intelligent, you know, thoughtful people who aren’t unreasonable at all.

Cameron Sutter  26:29  
Man, we get so many requests for features, and we just have such a huge list of ideas that are really, really cool. First one that comes to mind is like more world building stuff. And then a chronological timeline is another big one. Oh, yeah,

Ryan Zee  26:45  
we have a we have a large segment of sci fi and fantasy authors that are part of the the audience. So I think we are legion. Yeah. So having more world building features would definitely be a step in the right, a good step in the right direction. Yeah,

Trevor Thrall  26:59  
absolutely. You know, the other thing that I noticed, you know, you guys have have baked in some of that, maybe this, and I haven’t dug into it. But the series sort of, you know, structuring stuff, I have to say, you know, of all the fiction writers I’m working with, maybe only one is not someone who works on series. So these are all I mean, this is everyone knows the economics of it now, especially if you’re an indie, you have to have a series. And so there’s nobody planning a single book anymore. Everyone’s playing a trilogy or a decade, whatever the hell 10 is, you know, whatever. I mean, so you, it’s really, you know, world building is crucial, because people are not just I mean, they know this world has to be somewhere you can live in for 356 10 books, maybe. So that’s Yeah, that’s really interesting to hear that.

Cameron Sutter  27:45  
Yeah. When I was trying to publish my first book 12 years ago, the phrase that you always put in your query letter was always it’s a standalone book with series potential series was not something that you want to go for right away. But that’s just totally flipped. Like, if you don’t have a series, you’re not going to make money.

Trevor Thrall  28:05  
Yeah, yeah. No, it’s It’s interesting how the economics have become a little bit more clear, as well, for everyone who’s not, you know, 50 Shades of Grey, or whatever, even she has a series for God’s sake. So, you know, but anyways, so so people have asked for some things, you have tons of ideas, you know, you’ve just done the pro thing. So I’m not asking you to do something new tomorrow, but like, Do you have a vision? Is there another sort of holy grail for you in the future, you sort of just kind of batten down the hatches at this point and sell what you got?

Ryan Zee  28:36  
No, I mean, we have a long list of ideas and things that we want to add into the program. I don’t think you know, we could be working on this for the next 10 years, and there will probably still be more features that add into the program. So no, I mean, we’re very much and, you know, progressing towards the different objectives we have for that we’re trying

Cameron Sutter  29:00  
to balance making sure that it’s still easy to use and doesn’t have problems. But we’re trying to add features quickly as well.

I don’t know if we want to mention the ones we’re working on. Why not? Go for it. What else? If you don’t tell anybody? Better Scrivener. Interaction, what’s the word? I’m looking for? Exporting and syncing better Scrivener? I just can’t think integration, maybe integration. That’s what it was. Thank you better Scrivener integration and, and chronological timeline is definitely one that we’ve got on our radar.

Trevor Thrall  29:45  
Awesome. Now that’s going to be fun to look forward to. So one last thing I you guys have a big Facebook group and you are, you know, reach out to a lot of writers to talk about plotting, you know, talk about Little bit about sort of the community aspect of your business because that not not all apps really have that. But you guys found that to be something that was important, obviously.

Ryan Zee  30:09  
Yeah. You know, the writing community is, you know, fairly, you know, small and inclusive. And it’s always, it’s always great to hear from people and what they’re experiencing with the program and getting feedback on their ideas, is something that I’ve personally found to be really valuable. Throughout my, you know, history working in the business, it’s great to have that personal relationship with some, you know, some of your customers, and getting that feedback and making people feel comfortable with you, as you as a business. You know, like I said, the writing community is fairly small. So when you have a business that is interacting with the community, I think the community respects that and appreciates it. And, you know, we certainly appreciate the feedback we get from, you know, folks as well. So I think it’s like a nice it works, it works out well.

Cameron Sutter  31:12  
It’s really cool to see what you’re building help people and to have them talk about it and, and to get to know them and know their writing and things like that. And, and writing is interesting, because even though everybody is trying to sell their own books, they’re not really competitors. They’re kind of competitors, but not competitors. And so they’re very much it’s very much community of helping people out and helping each person be better. It’s not like, Oh, mine’s better. So I want to share my secrets. It’s. So that’s very cool, and a very good reason to have a community around it.

Trevor Thrall  31:50  
Absolutely. Well, you guys are absolutely building a tool that is helping a lot of writers. I know. I appreciate it. And I don’t even write fiction and I am sure that the fiction writers who use it really appreciate it. Thanks for taking time today to talk to us about plotter guys.

Cameron Sutter  32:05  
Glad to be here. All right.

Ryan Zee  32:08  
Thanks a lot.

Trevor Thrall  32:09  
Yeah, talk to you guys later.

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